Circle270Media Podcast Consultants were recently interviewed by Michelle Wilson and the Business Inspires Podcast.
We had a great time talking about podcasting, marketing, radio, old-time radio, and so much more. Below are the podcast episode and transcript!
Michelle: [00:00:00] Hi this is Michelle Wilson I’m the executive director of the TriVillage Chamber Partnership. We are a pro-business organization in the Grandview Heights, Marble Cliff and Upper Arlington communities. Today we are speaking with Brett Johnson who is the president and owner of Circle270Media and he is the brains behind this podcast. So I’m so excited to finally have you on the podcast.
Brett: [00:00:23] It’s unusual to be on the other side of the soundboard.
Michelle: [00:00:26] I bet it is I bet it is so great to have you. We’re excited about this. You came to me gosh a couple of years ago and had this idea of doing a podcast and I looked at you probably like a deer in the headlights and thought What are you talking about. And you know how do we make this work for the Chamber of Commerce. And it’s probably one of my favorite parts of my job now and you know getting to talk to businesses and establish a connection with them with the listener on a different level. You know people say “What is the Business Inspires podcast?” and I say oh you know we’re we’re talking about business and you know why they do what they do and that’s it’s so much more than that. And a lot of that was your idea. So tell me why. Why did you think this was a good idea?
Brett: [00:01:10] Working with you over the past what’s been now five or six years I suppose as we just talked about before recording we are terrible at time stamp so it could be a lot longer than that but we don’t want to age ourselves either. I know that you have this unique dynamic with the Chamber members and even talking with you just it’s comfortable. And I knew you’d be perfect and that’s what podcasts are all about. Is to bring that emotion from your guest to talk about their business. And I think it’s what’s unique about podcasts is that it does very very well. You can’t fake the emotion that you speak to a mic.
Michelle: [00:01:48] You’re right.
Brett: [00:01:48] And video is the same way to a certain degree but you can fake tears and bring that emotion out. But it’s very hard to bring out the tears with just audio. The happiness the joy the excitement you hear it in someone’s voice about their business. You can’t fake that.
Michelle: [00:02:06] You’re right. And that passion comes through.
Brett: [00:02:08] It does. And I know that you bring that out in everybody you talk to. You bring out the best. And I think podcasts are very good forum for you. And I wanted to bring some value to the TriVillage Chamber Partnership as well. What can the Chamber do for its members to showcase what’s going on with this. And you’re one of the very few chambers in the United States that even has a podcast. I’ve had calls to me asking about what what’s going on with this Business Inspires? What do you? How do you do that? And I just give them model and I say listen.
Michelle: [00:02:44] That’s great.
Brett: [00:02:45] Find out about it. So between us and you know one another chamber in Columbus we’re pretty much it, in regards to a Chamber podcast.
Michelle: [00:02:55] That’s exciting.
Brett: [00:02:56] But I consider our’s the best, of course. Because it’s inspirational. Even in the name it’s inspired!
Michelle: [00:03:04] So true. And I do think that to set ourselves apart a little bit we do we do delve a little bit more into the person, and not just what the business does and where they see it going and what you know how they define success. Those are all key pieces of when we talk about and I think are important but I really love the personal connection and why they started doing what they’re doing or how they ended up there by accident. I think that’s really exciting.
Brett: [00:03:29] Every episode I’ve learned and grown myself from hearing these stories. Yeah it’s never an easy road. Usually it’s not just you just expect it, right? But every story it’s just accidental. I accidentally had a drink with this person to a “T” every episode is so exciting you hear those takes the moment, expect it to happen, but recognize “Oh yeah, this is my moment.”
Michelle: [00:03:54] Yeah I love walking away with some nugget that they end up sharing you know again sometimes by accident you know like Scott Humphreys at The Food Lab saying you know somebody once told him to “take the hard right.” You know it’s not the easy road. “Take the hard right” and look where he is. You know Steve Weaver with The Candle Lab sharing some of his inspiration and I walk away and I just I feel so fulfilled and excited that these businesses are in our community. And we get to sit down and chat with them for a few minutes.
Brett: [00:04:22] And I think that small businesses don’t get enough spotlight.
Michelle: [00:04:25] Right.
Brett: [00:04:26] On what they’ve done and are doing for the community that’s usually the bigger companies that get the notoriety, they get the press, because of what they’re doing. They affect maybe more people overall because it’s tied to, let’s say, stocks. We’re dealing with two people that own a business that have five employees. That’s their world and it is for those five employees as well.
Michelle: [00:04:49] So clearly our podcast, Business Inspires, stellar. But let’s talk about some of the other podcasts that you work on and what they are about and it came to be.
Brett: [00:05:00] With a nonprofit that I’ve been working with for the past 15 years, Employment For Seniors, I put together, with the executive director, a podcast called The Successful Encore Career. The nonprofit Employment for seniors deals with adults over 50 who are looking for a different career, or need a job. And it also works with employers that are looking specifically for older adults over 50. And the main focus of the Successful Encore Career was to spotlight adults who have made the transition. Maybe they were working at the same place for 20 or 25 years and lost their job. How did they transition into this…it could be a job of notoriety or could be just that they survived. And they made it. I think older adults have a bit more of a struggle because of ageism exists. It does. It’s not talked about but it does. And I wanted to make sure that Employment For Seniors had a forum to be able to talk and interview those type of people, as well as spotlight what Employment For Seniors does do. Working with employers and the clients that they have over 50. Both ends with free services. So the podcast has been a very good opportunity. In fact, what’s kind of fun to watch as we’ve been experimenting this year. With Employment For Seniors in a new space they now can have hiring events. They close the place down, and bring in a recruiter who is hiring on the spot. It’s called the hiring event. And they’re specifically looking for older adults. One example being TriStar Transportation. They love older adults and they’re taking kids to school morning and afternoon but older adults are their target employee because they’re dedicated, they’re responsible, they’re not on their phone while they’re driving.
Michelle: [00:06:52] They probably had great driving records that experience.
Brett: [00:06:55] So they will be having their second hiring event in July. What we do with the podcast is interview the recruiter and post a podcast about the hiring event. That doubles our downloads we have for the podcast.
Michelle: [00:07:09] Does it really?
Brett: [00:07:09] Yeah. It happened overnight. First when we posted we started looking at the analytics and going Wow! OK.
Michelle: [00:07:16] It’s nice to be able to track that because you do like to know what your doing is working out beautifully in the long run.
Brett: [00:07:24] It’s definitely the long run for that podcast.
Brett: [00:07:26] That’s one. I am working with a variety of other businesses. My focus has been mostly with business to business. And recently starting to work with an Emotional EQ, an emotional intelligence company called Spirit of EQ. They’re very business to business. The podcast works very well because you can target that. And the content is going to be more business driven. They’re their call to action is contact us and we will do presentations. They’ve been laying out what is emotional intelligence, how does it affect employees and your higher level management, to basically analyze your employees so they’re in the right spot. As time has gone on with Circle270Media, my focus has been really working with businesses. Podcasting has democratized our voice. We don’t have to rely on television or radio.
Michelle: [00:08:16] And you can hone the message and it’s really nice. And when we first met all those years ago however long it was since we can’t pinpoint that you had a long standing career in radio and with North American Broadcasting. They’ve been a great partner of the chamber all of these years. And then you had this idea of podcasting and I’m intrigued as to why. I mean what was it that you thought “this is something” and this is going to take off and end and here’s why.
Brett: [00:08:46] I began in radio over 30 years ago. And anybody in the radio industry will know radio has changed a lot. And I think even listeners get it too. If you’ve listened to radio for a few decades you know the differences that are happening. And over the past 10 years or so I’ve seen a big difference in regards to the the economy of it. How it’s used. It’s not accessible to businesses in regards to a long form talking about themselves. It’s now 15 seconds, 30 seconds. Still effective to a certain degree. But you can’t tell a story about your business in that amount of time. You can only really direct them to a call to action. Go to my website to get more information or to buy a certain product. Netflix changed this completely.
Michelle: [00:09:36] Netflix, really?
Brett: [00:09:38] I think so at least. We are now an on-demand entertainment society. We’re not going to be told OK you have to listen on Sunday morning at 10:00 to hear my program about my financial services. Not going happen.
Michelle: [00:09:54] Oh my gosh you’re so right.
[00:09:55] Not going to happen. No. As a consumer, I’ll tell you what I want to listen to it. When want to watch it. My kids, my son’s a freshman in high school, my daughter now a sophomore at Kent State. Their whole life has been audio and video on demand.
Michelle: [00:10:12] Oh yeah, my kids as well.
Brett: [00:10:12] They had they never watched on air television.
Michelle: [00:10:15] I mean cable is not a concept.
Brett: [00:10:17] It’s not. So good or bad,.
Michelle: [00:10:20] Right.
Brett: [00:10:20] That’s the way our life is. And podcasts fit it perfectly. Perfectly. You just tell them when it’s available, they download it, and listen to it at their convenience.
Michelle: [00:10:40] Wow. It’s so true and I’ve never even asked you that question before. That’s fascinating because I think it’s absolutely spot on.
Brett: [00:10:47] And I think the inside of our cars have been changing as well too. There’s some technology dynamic going on that is not pro radio at this point and time. There are a lot of entertainment options in that dashboard. I preface all this saying I still love radio. I’m still part of radio. Radio is a very effective marketing medium. But the relationship that we have with auto manufacturers is very loose. That entertainment console is changing drastically every year. And radio is harder to find in there. They want you to connect your smartphone up.
Michelle: [00:11:23] Absolutely, it’s all Bluetooth walk and Wi-Fi enabled.
Brett: [00:11:26] Radio needs to embrace that. Any information technology needs to embrace that your content needs to follow me with my phone into my car. So if you are not accessible in your phone, you’re going to lose your listener. Spotify is winning with this. So radio has been a little bit behind in regards to embracing that. We have a tendency to have our head in the sand.
Michelle: [00:11:50] What what could they do differently.
Brett: [00:11:53] Making sure that it’s very easy to find your radio station in the car. OK whether it’s through a smartphone app that the entertainment is there an easy to follow you. Just make it easy, make it easy. Car manufacturers are not making it easy. There are now two models, Tesla and BMW, that have eliminated AM.
Michelle: [00:12:16] Have they really? I’m showing my age by saying “oh my gosh!”.
Brett: [00:12:21] The cost factor to build the car to protect AM frequency. It’s a technical thing, to protect the frequency coming into the car. They’re just scrapping it altogether. Now radio is fine with that. It’s like you have a smartphone app and you can stream your radio station and you’re in good shape. Fine. Or if you’re simulcast FM you’re still getting it over the air. But it’s recognizing this evolution of technology. That’s key.
Michelle: [00:12:49] But certainly in your car is a perfect time to be listening to podcasts you know. And I do that because it’s it’s you know I have kids and I have a busy life and I get in my car and that’s my space and my time and I do listen to podcasts then because it’s easier for me and on demand. I can click start and stop and pause and go and I’m good and ready to go.
Brett: [00:13:12] Amazing how infectious it is once you find a favorite podcast or two. All of a sudden the world opens up.
Michelle: [00:13:18] Oh my gosh, yes. There are podcasts for everything.
Brett: [00:13:18] There is more of these, there’s more this! Underwater basket weaving? That’s so cool, you know. It’s out there and you just need to find out. It’s easy to find. Quite frankly you just open up your podcast player. Whether it’s Android now with Google Podcasts.
Michelle: [00:13:36] Even that’s changed since we started doing Business Inspires. The availability and accessibility has changed in 15 16 months
Brett: [00:13:45] Yeah it’s really now explaining to potential listener what your content is because it’s really fairly easy to find the podcast. Now some people would say no it’s not. But yeah how many native apps on your smartphone do to open it up and search.
Michelle: [00:13:59] Right.
Brett: [00:13:59] So therefore you need to tell your tribe, tell your potential listeners, what your content is about in each episode. That’s key.
Michelle: [00:14:07] Tell me how what I think is fascinating. Again making the transition from radio to podcasts and as podcasts continue to popularity, how advertising is affected. In podcasts there aren’t really a lot advertising, there’s there’s a little bit. There’s pre-roll, mid-roll and post roll and you know, typically, that’s I think a sponsor. See you’re getting a little bit of advertising. It’s very light advertising. How are podcasts sustainable without advertising like radio it certainly depends on it and TV certainly depends on it.
Brett: [00:14:41] Lots of different approaches to sponsorships. There are a lot of networks that are being put together that you join the network and they have a sales staff that will sell advertising pre-roll, mid-roll. Pre-roll being it runs before the podcast begins. Mid-roll is that you allow a dedicated spot placement for a commercial to be in. So that’s one approach. Just this past year it was tracked that the over 300 million dollars is being spent in podcast advertising. Small compared to everybody else. But that’s an 80 percent growth in one year.
Michelle: [00:15:18] In a year, wow.
Brett: [00:15:19] So it will continue to grow. In that with the technology following to make it easier and easier to place those commercials as well. Whether it’s digitally inserted or as we do you know on a local level that you put a pre-roll in or mid- roll in and it’s “baked in” as they say. So it’s always there. A lot of businesses are creating their own podcasts and utilizing marketing dollars to create those podcasts. So they’re looking at it as a marketing opportunity. And they’re pulling advertising from traditional radio, television to create podcasts.
Michelle: [00:15:51] So it is affecting those other markets.
Brett: [00:15:53] It is. It is. I see the opportunity for consultancy. They see it as a marketing tool. They read it in trade magazines, they are seeing that they’re competition is creating a podcast. Or they’ve heard about it at conventions, they’ve heard people talk about it. “I’ve got to get into this because it’s working for them.”.
Brett: [00:16:09] Well they don’t know where to start. And that’s why I’m seeing the opportunity with my radio background of 30 years of selling, programming, promotions, on air as well is to help them get where they need to go with this podcast. It’s not really rocket science but if you don’t know where you’re going you don’t know where you’re going.
Michelle: [00:16:27] Well and you have to be willing to adapt which I think is what you know is a huge credit to you is that you saw this coming and you kind of honed in on it and figured it out and it became a passion. And and now you’re kind of transitioning from traditional radio and moving really more towards podcasts and consultancy. So let’s talk about what Circle270Media is up to and besides Business Inspires, and where you want to go that.
Brett: [00:16:55] Well transitioning I still have a foot in radio because I think radio and podcasting are made for each other. It’s just overall the radio industry has not been very embracing of it. They look at it as a threat to losing listeners. That if they’re listening to podcasts or not listening to radio station. Well why not take a look at it as if a radio station brings that entertainment option to their listener that listener will now become more loyal to the radio station because “oh yeah, the radio station offered this to me right through their smartphone app” or an on air personality has a one off podcast. It’s branding opportunity.
Michelle: [00:17:36] Absolutely.
Brett: [00:17:37] So that in itself that’s why I want to continue to be in with radio because it’s a good marriage. Beyond that with as I mentioned earlier with Circle270Media, it’s helping businesses understand what best practices are. There’s a lot of information out there to Google how to do a podcast. If you don’t do it right the first time you really don’t have the opportunity to go backwards to do it right again. Especially when it comes to a business podcast. It’s almost the same as putting a logo together. If that logo does not look good for your business, it can be a negative. You should have a good sound with this podcast that same with video as well. The best foot needs to be put forward and a consultant with radio background as myself can help because of all the years in understanding audio. And audio is a different bird. It’s not 30 or 60 seconds at a time. It’s 25, 35, 45 minutes. Again however long you want it to be. But there’s a structure to it. There is a bit of a science to it. It’s always nice to have it loaded in your in your favor, when you first start to publish.
Michelle: [00:18:50] So where do you see yourself going in the next few years? Are you going to seek more clients? I mean you helped establish this idea, Business Inspires and we honed it together. But you know do you have some things in the back of your head like “I think somebody needs to do a podcast on under water basket weaving” like you said earlier? So let’s find that weaver! I mean do you have a few things kind of you know churning that you that you have a passion for that you feel is missing and has a great opportunity?
Brett: [00:19:22] My passion for this initially was audio drama. I am a huge fan of old time radio, of the comedies of the sci-fi. I love that “theater of the mind.” That’s what drew me into radio initially, first of all, because it’s a playground in your head. There are no budget limitations to creating an audio drama or a comedy that you’re setting the scene in someone’s head that you didn’t have to pay to go to Paris, to be in Paris You just tell the listener “we’re in Paris.” I think that’s where podcasting is going to really be going as well. There are so many great audio drama podcasts out there right now that are are being picked up by television for really television series as well. So I think it’s rich, it’s going to continue to develop. Because the cost of coming into it is fairly low. And these writers are looking for an outlet to create these great stories.
Michelle: [00:20:24] That’s fascinating.
Brett: [00:20:26] Yeah it is. So I think that’s a realm that is going to develop. It’s monetizing it that is not there yet. A lot of the listeners and followers to these audio drama series are still not really comfortable to having advertising in their audio drama. But I think as time goes on they’ll get a bit more comfortable if it’s placed correctly. I mean the best old time radio shows, for example, Fibber McGee and Molly. A comedy show that went over 15, 18 years long. They actually inserted their sponsor into the show and it was part of the show. You were kind of waiting for the announcer to come in. The longtime sponsor was Johnson Wax. You knew when the announcer was coming in. He was going to insert Johnson Wax somehow.
Michelle: [00:21:17] Oh that’s funny.
Brett: [00:21:18] And it was part of the comedy shtick. That’s where it’s going to open up. Almost “product placement,” I guess you could say. I think that will come into play. So the listener is a bit more at ease with what’s going on. And again a podcast is still a free product, so I think the listener gets it though that it’s free coming in. I’m going to have to give up 30 or 60 seconds of something because it’s still free.
Michelle: [00:21:43] Right. Right.
Brett: [00:21:44] So it’s a learning curve. It’ll happen. I think that’s going to explode. I have not got my head around it yet either. But it’s but it still comes down to advertiser support. Advertisers haven’t seen the value in that yet. But it will be there, they will be there eventually. Probably sooner than we think.
Brett: [00:22:03] Beyond that though there are a lot of different monetization models. It really comes down to what the podcaster is comfortable with. What they want to do. And some don’t want the money at all. They just it’s a hobby. don’t care. That’s their voice. But it comes down to how comfortable the podcaster is and the agreement with the sponsor. What they’re willing to do and what they want from that advertising.
Michelle: [00:22:28] What their goal is.
Brett: [00:22:29] Exactly and match up and go with it.
Michelle: [00:22:31] There was even just recently podcasters’ convention in town. So what’s what’s that like. I mean what do people do in a podcasters’ convention?
Brett: [00:22:41] The Columbus Podcast Festival was a showcase for local podcasters. You had to submit and be accepted. Because of the limitation of stage space. And pay to be on stage to help cover costs. So yeah it basically zeroed out at the very end and the radio station group that I’m with cosponsor that this year. We were tied with it as a media sponsor. We see the future of that festival as well. It did very very well. A variety of local podcasters, all the way to the national scene. From what I’m hearing he wants to bring bigger names in. As a podcast festival it was basically podcast after podcast after podcast on stage. Now there are other podcasts movements and conventions.
Brett: In fact the big one that comes up in the end of July, Podcast Movement 18. It’s only about 5 or 6 years old and it’s grown from a few hundred participants all the way to 5000 podcasters there.
Michelle: [00:23:40] Where’s that?
Brett: [00:23:41] In Philadelphia. So I’ll be there. They switch coast to coast. Last year it was in Anaheim and I just couldn’t see going to Anaheim. I’ll go every other year. But Philadelphia I can do and that’s not a problem. When I went to PM 16 in Chicago that was my introduction to what a career in podcast consultancy could really be.
Michelle: [00:24:03] Ok.
Brett: [00:24:04] Driving home from Chicago I was on “cloud 9” the whole time, thinking “This is where I got to go. This is it. This is it.” The community is fantastic it’s supportive.
Michelle: [00:24:14] And you did it!
Brett: [00:24:14] The directions in the right place. It turned me into what had to be done. And gave me the insight of how to get it done as well too. So I’m really excited about PM 18 coming up and a different perspective as well. Two years two and a half years in almost three years. So looking at it a little bit differently.
Michelle: [00:24:32] Right, all you’ve learned in that time. And all the experience you’ve gained in that time and that’s really cool that you went there and thought this is what I am going to do and you did it. And now you get to go back a couple of years later having done it.
Brett: [00:24:47] Business cards in hand. Now a track record. The conversations will be much different. Seeking out people to talk to will be much different. I submitted for a couple of tracks to speak. Wasn’t accepted, which was fine. It’s just that I love the effort of putting it together. It’s like yeah that was actually pretty good. But the competition’s really stiff for speaking engagements. But if I make it great, if not that’s ok too. I tried right. And take a look who will be speaking and try again next year.
Michelle: [00:25:14] I’ll tell you what I love to do about podcasts, is the mobility of them. And we’re sitting right now in different space than we typically in. We are at Versa, a co-working space close to downtown Columbus, but in the TriVillage area. And you’ve even done some live recordings at our event, at Grandview DigFest. And those are really cool to listen to. They’re short and sweet. They give our sponsors a little extra push in advertisement. And I learned something by listening to those you know after after DigFest. And again we can still go back and edit those even though they’re they’re being taped live so I think that’s a really cool piece of podcasting too. They are so versatile you don’t have to be sitting in a studio. You don’t have to be wherever you want to be and the atmosphere can lend right to you know the topic at hand and that’s really cool.
Brett: [00:26:08] And I think that’s where businesses are going to see this differently too, when they go to their annual conventions where they buy booth space. Well how do you engage those people that are walking by? Well, why not create a podcast that you’re interviewing people that are getting information. And by the way, it’s being done right now. This is not a new idea that somebody should go run with it. It’s happening now and they’re publishing these podcasts or they’re available only to attendees at a convention.
Michelle: [00:26:38] Sure, it’s a benefit.
Brett: [00:26:38] Exactly, and because of the finite number of people. It’s endless, the ideas that you can come up with. It’s just figuring out how to do it. Because the technology is there, the equipment is there. It’s just starting it, finishing it, and what do you do with it afterwards. A lot of what the podcast space is doing too is that once you create it it has a long tail. You can do a lot of different things with it as we do with Business Inspires. We record, transcribe, blog, put it out there on a consistent basis using different applications and software, where it just drips in different social media to pull you back in. Because we create content that is good today and good for another year.
Brett: [00:27:24] As long as that business is in business it’s still worth listening to.
Michelle: [00:27:29] And it’s feels good to talk to these businesses and get to know them and create that connection. But it’s a marketing piece that we’re able to hand them and say “put this on your web site. Let people hear you. Let people hear why you do what you do, besides the TriVillage Chamber members, but let your customers know.” And I think it feels good to to give that to them and get them added value as well.
Brett: [00:27:52] Exactly.
Michelle: [00:27:53] I really feel like we are very fortunate to work with you and be part of this industry. I think in its infancy.
Brett: [00:28:01] It definitely is.
Michelle: [00:28:01] It’s new and there so far to go.
Brett: [00:28:03] It’s only about 12 or 13 years old but it’s still a pup. It really is. Because of the technology catching up with it. So yeah there have been podcasters that have been around for 10 12 years. They were there at the infancy and that was when you could only listen through iTunes, and hence the name, pod-cast. You had to download the audio on to your iPod to listen to it. And that’s where it came from. Look how far we’ve come in just 10 years.
Michelle: [00:28:34] I mean it leaps and bounds and like like you said, it’s a pop. So if somebody is interested and they think I have this really great idea I’m going to call Brett. How did they get a hold of you.
Brett: [00:28:46] Go to my website Circle270Media.com. That is the best way to do it. That’s all the information about me. Everything is going on all the podcasts that I’ve worked with as well. It’ll be under construction in another few weeks I’m gonna change some things up as all websites do. I’m sure the listener knows that process all too well. But it works perfectly the way it is but with things changing with what I’m doing for the remainder of this year and moving forward, obviously changes have to be made. But it’s still the same basic information. But that will give you some ideas, in regards to who I am, my background. Again podcasts that I am affiliated with, or work with or help produce. I am always open for a cup of coffee, or a phone call just to throw out ideas. I had an e-mail this morning from a client, or actually not really a client, but a nonprofit that I’ve been kind of talking to off and on and she was asking about some technical thing with her podcast. And threw her an email back, gave her some options. So I’m always open for that. I mean that that that’s where conversation starts. There are no expectations other than just having a good conversation and see where it goes. Become the “go-to person” that that person may run into somebody that actually is more interested in podcasting. And that happens. It’s all paying forward, doing the right thing. Doing the right thing at the right time.
Michelle: [00:30:01] You’re doing the right thing by the chamber so we thank you.
Brett: [00:30:03] Thank you. It’s been pure joy.
Michelle: [00:30:03] Yes it has been great. I look forward to a long long time. Together and continuing some podcasts. I encourage everybody listening to reach out to Brett and Circle270Media.com and take a look at what he’s doing because there’s some really great stuff out there and there’s plenty of room to grow. So give them a call. Take a look at his website. And thank you for listening.
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